before we solve the world's problems, maybe we all need to work on our communication skills a bit? either that or develop thicker skins of whatever color and let it roll off like water off a duck's mixed metaphor?
personal attacks = bad. generalizations = bad. condescension = bad. namecalling = ok, fine, i'll let that one slide. maybe we can be like that cracker skits's kid and use the names to break down the discomfort, because apparently, being completely sober, earnest, and serious about this will drive us all mad. Jason made a good point about using humor to diffuse any number of racial situations in his life, perhaps to keep from going mad. Aaron used neon pink and animated hello kitty gif's because he's apparently already quite mad to lighten the mood at his place. oh god do you realize how i just agonized over using the word 'lighten' like light's better? jeez, what a minefield this is. madness.
because apparently the deep feelings we all have are a little too raw to engage in a perfectly proper discussion, and we need a little comic relief even if it is wrong to do it that way. and we probably need to let go of right and wrong in the either/or sense and accept that each and every one of us has a completely unique individual perspective that we've developed through all our lives, and that relating this to each other is bound to offend. and if nobody got offended, that would be a sure sign that we were doing something wrong here. moving beyond the offense taken is the only way that this discussion will accomplish anything.
cracker cracker cracker. the pants i'm wearing are technically khaki, but that's only because it's damn hard to find fat pants at goodwill, so you go with what you can get. so i'm a khaki-wearing cracker bitch. or something. and yeah, it's ok to hate me on that account. i'm surprisingly ok with that, a fact i discovered, just now, writing that.
i'd like to keep talking about this, but maybe to drop the few threads in which we've been attacking each other for having the wrong outlook on this? 'cause, nobody wins? and we do more harm than good that way? and maybe next topic should be: what now? how do we change what's wrong?
The wise one has spoken!
Yes. Humor. Humor is good.
It's gotten me out of a lot of dangerous situations in real life without even having to curl a fist.
I will argue (and take offense) no more!
now if i were really wise i'd have stayed out of this entirely. but i can't now, i've gone quite mad myself. madness is so refreshing.
Madness rules!
You know I'm not renaming Enemy of the State, "Anarchtica", for nothing, you know....
you could have a tagline like 'Anarchtica - the incontinent continent'. incontinence - now that's anarchy.
oh, i'm so getting drunk tonight. you can just tell.
and i totally figured out why i've been so pissy lately -- it was my underwear. i was in target getting kid stuff and was drawn to the underwear department, where i by luck without trying it on bought not only a bra but two pairs of chonies that *fit*. so i'm much more comfortable now, no more chafing under the boobage, and my panties are no longer in a bunch.
who knew it's just the simple things in life that make us the happiest?
oh my god. maybe that's the answer. we should all just go get new underwear. maybe we're being all bound up in the personal places.
Um, the difficult thing is...who is going to judge what qualifies as a personal attack or as name calling, or as condescension...or...or...or...?
Frequently these things go unnoticed or unidentified. It's kind of like not realizing why it might be offensive to refer to the white experience as normal (regardless of what you meant to say, that's obviously how it was interpreted by at least one person, and I think Trula has a point...and I think that kind of thing is fairly common. In fact, I'm going to have to go through my writings on the subject of race and see if I'm guilty of that one, because I got a sinking feeling when I read that bullshit detector.)
So, yeah...grab hold of that wad that's all bunched in yer ass. Take some midol. Eat some chocolate. Get drunk. Whatever it takes. Shave your legs if you think it'll make you feel more comfortable.
It's not a comfortable topic. It shouldn't be. And I think rage and anger definitely have their place. And that makes some people even more uncomfortable.
Me, I'm going to go allow myself to be treated like a jungle gym by my young child to distract him from throwing all of the books that are currently on the shelf onto the floor.
*sigh*
kd, I didn't sense anything but good intent in your posts, and a search for some common sense and common ground.
There are, however, people out there who have gotten so used to basking in the glow of that fire of anger in their hearts, that they search through everything people say, regardless of intent, regardless of differing lexicons, until they find the words or phrases they can use as fuel to stoke that fire, and keep their anger fresh.
I feel incredible sadness for that need to keep anger fresh, that need to make another person the 'other' and the 'oppressor' to their oppressed. It handicaps them more than their race, or disability, or gender, or sexual orientation, or ________(fill in the blank with whichever minority/dispossessed role they see themselves fulfilling in society), ever could. Much more.
If you make your attempt to move past that and enjoy people for who they are, and to embrace equality, then you've really done what you can do. If they can't or won't accept that for what it is, but instead choose to twist it into what they need to hear in order to keep their bitterness fresh and present, there's not a lot you can do within the bounds what can be called sane.
kd, you said a mouthful when you mentioned that it is the SIMPLE things in life that comfort and make us happy.
personal attacks? condescension? how to judge. hmm. well, if it walks like a duck, and quacks like a mallard, and waddles like a turkey, who knows?
best not to judge others and to take the gentle path of suggesting what might be improved.
slow, gentle, continuous improvement. a sense of urgency might compel us into the harsher route, but that can hurt more than it helps, because it drives folks into separate corners to spar things out, and sparring with each other is *not* the answer.
if we all cooperate, this will actually go much more smoothly and even maybe more quickly. bickering is counterproductive.
You see, Jen's post, in my opinion, is definitely a personal attack on Trula. KD...I think you know that your words hurt her, because you apologized for them. I know that you are trying to learn, and you can't possibly learn without fucking up on occasion. And I think you continue to learn because you are open to fucking up.
Each person is going to express their displeasure differently. I'm not sure that I would be willing to be the one to tell someone who is angry that they need to control their temper. I think that is silencing. I think if there is anger being expressed, and your reaction to the anger is defensiveness...perhaps there's something there that needs to be examined.
KD...I see you examining it. I do. And it's offensive to me that people want to minimize Trula's anger to preserve...what?
And I didn't once use the word "fuck" in that post. HA! I'm proud of myself!
And, not that I have all of the answers, but I still haven't decided that "the gentle approach" is the best way to deal with it. It's certainly not the only way, and I don't think anyone is in a position to decide conclusively.
Change 'attack' to 'observation', Dru, and you'd be closer to the intent of that post. I don't deny that people can be justifiably angry about something, but I do make the observation that one can widely sidestep the spirit of a dialogue in order to hang on tightly to a word or phrase out of context of that intent in order to continue to justify that anger and to turn dialogue into battle.
We need to get beyond that if dialogue is going to continue -- I absolutely accept that one needs to try to be sensitive to the words or phrases one says once one is made aware of them -- but one should also try to wrap one's head around the possibility that just because a person uses a phrase that provokes you, that they may not mean it in the way to which you've become accustomed to hearing it. They may, in fact, as kd I think was doing, be trying to reach common ground.
Maybe if we give people the credit for that attempt, instead of skewering each other for not doing it the way *we* think is the best, most ideal way, we might get somewhere. Me, I'd rather look for intent, first.
you did so use the work fuck, in its adjective form :)
and please realize that people tend to come here and defend me, this happens, people think i'm nice. i'm not entirely nice, you know, i'm definitely a work in progress.
my own defensiveness is my own enemy here, and the source of whatever anger has been directed at me, and i own that. it's mine. i'm here with it, learning to change, but realize that the people defending my post are expressing their own experiences with me which go beyond Trula's knowledge of me -- she read one post and took offense to just that.
the people who defend me know me better. and they know i don't go around trying to hurt people.
that one post could be considered very offensive, if taken completely out of the context that is me and my blog. context is very important.
"context is very important"
Amen.
In kd's *DEFENSE* I think what she was trying to say is that maybe we can try a new approach to this topic. Yelling and being defensive didn't work the first time. Let's try humor, let's try honesty... and for God's sake, let's just take what each person says as their own opinion, based on *their* experiences... with no more weight than anybody else's... okay?
Who knows we may learn something?
Humor's only as effective as the person who's open to it, Eric. I personally think it's a great approach a lot of the time, but it can easily (very, very easily) be taken as condescending and belittling, unfortunately. But when it works, work it, baby. :)
Me, I'm just reminded why I don't generally choose to get into these sort of dialogues with people on the internet. Context is everything, and communication is, what, 80% non-verbal? Last time I checked? So I tend to limit these sorts of discussions to people I actually know in person, and who've known me enough to sort the dialogue through the context of who I am. So far, that's been a good route for me. I just don't get into these strange 'you attacked me' or 'you're offensive' type conversations face to face. And I like it that way. Disharmony does not rock my world.
"And, not that I have all of the answers, but I still haven't decided that "the gentle approach" is the best way to deal with it."
how do we solve anything in a flamewar? has anyone ever solved *anything* in the context of a flamewar? has progress been made for the general good? or are we just, drawn to the flame, at the expense of progress?
"Disharmony does not rock my world."
mine either. but we are mostly discussing this here because we won't or can't in r/l. i think we can make progress here, first, and carry it into our lives.
you know i'm the last one to incite a riot. but i feel compelled to continue this discussion, this *particular* discussion, at the risk of being the target of anger and creating a sense of disharmony here, in the otherwise peaceful switzerlandy environs of my little blog.
it's that important to me.
I guess I'm enormously blessed in that I have been able to talk about this in real life. My own family is racially diverse, so it's hard not to find myself involved in the dialogue in daily life.
As for flamewars....no, I can't see that solving anything. It has the momentary appearance of dialogue, but really, it's just competing monologues. And I don't think that moves much forward, really.
"how do we solve anything in a flamewar? has anyone ever solved *anything* in the context of a flamewar? has progress been made for the general good? or are we just, drawn to the flame, at the expense of progress?"
If I may? Of course, I speak from little personal experience ;), but I have yet to see anything accomplished by means of a flamewar, unless the ulitimate goal is hatred. And I was under the impression that this discussion was started as a means to help end hatred, not fuel it more. Oh, and by the way, I read your post three times, kd, and I honestly can't see where you said anything wrong.
Lee: exactly. well, on the flamewar part.
but i apologized because i hurt someone's feelings, which is their perception. it always is. and as such is valid.
though out of context. that, it was. i can't be perfect in every single word, i'm never going to, and i do indeed tire these semantical arguements.
we lose sight of the goal when it turns into taking every picky thing and turning that against each other.
and to those who would hate me right now? be my fucking guest. join the ever growing crowd.
i don't care anymore.
Well, if you don't mind I'll just continue to love you for the wonderful woman you are. :) And I'm sure if anyone sticks around here long enough, they'll grow to love you too. It's impossible not to.
i'm so not wonderful. really, not everyone gets to see that side of me and the ones who do, know. i'm not.
i'm a foolish drunk with delusions of adequacy.
kd, I'm sure you have your faults. We ALL do. But I *refuse* to believe you are anything but wonderful. And don't argue with me, or I'll have to drag your ass back to Switzerland for some of your own medicine. ;)
as long as it's Midol, chocolate, and beer, we're ok :)
See - and I think this has to do with ANY issue in blogland, if not in meatspace - I see two types of people. There are those who will read a post and immediately get offended by what they read and how they interpret it. Then there are those people who will comment and question - "did you mean to say X and Y? did you mean to be hurtful? did you mean to imply this? Please clarify." You have to step outside yourself to do this - you have to realize that the way you spin something can have something to do with your own biases or sensitivities. People hurt my feelings all the time - but that's because I'm (for the most part) reading them wrong, they don't mean to be hurtful - the fault is in my interpretation.
Then again I'm full of all sorts of hangups, so maybe my way is full of shit. Heh. Definitely time for a chocolate break for batty.
Dru, I'm not saying we need to minimize the anger - as Jen said, there is justifiable anger. And I'm not saying you need to change your attitude in any way - if it works for you, if it reaches people around you, if you get your message across - more power to you. It's just that the way you phrase things sometimes makes it seem condescending (even if you don't intend it that way) - and as if you had solved the problem for YOU, you're in the clear, but somehow the rest of US are wrong and to blame because we dont' see things just like you do. There are plenty of activists in history who used gentleness as you call it, as a strength. I'm not saying everyone lie down and be walked on - I am saying we don't ALL have to pummel someone in the face with words to get the message across.
Especially when you're preaching to the choir.
Intent behind the words. Look for the intent.
Everyone should get the benefit of the doubt to explain what they were intending to say. Language and writing - and especially the human use of these - is often imperfect - often misunderstood. If we jump down people's throats without giving them the chance to explain themselves further - how does that help anything?
The thing is, there's a difference between honestly expressed anger and a "flame war." Personally, I have not seen any flame wars in this discussion, but I have seen a lot of people excusing each other for things that others perceive as being offensive and/or racist.
Jen, I think using the word "bitterness" in any argument or discussion is an attack. Particularly when that person is not around to further the discussion.
I also have a really difficult time with the concept of certain people "getting over it" or "moving beyond anger" or whatever. Telling someone to "get over it" when you are talking about something like racism is minimizing. How do you suggest one "gets over" racism? And whose responsibility is it to "get over it?"
And, yes, I happen to know that kd is an awesome person, too...but I also believe that when someone says something that offends another person, and then apologizes for it, they ought not to be defended. It pretty much negates the apology. People fuck up. And there are usually consequences for fucking up. When you fuck up when dealing with a volatile subject that effects peoples' lives as intensely as racism, you can generally expect that the consequence will be harsh. And you can either learn from that anger, or you can react to it.
As an example - If my son monk slaps his brother on the arm, and his brother cries out...Monk normally apologizes. Now, I know that Monk is a sweetheart who frequently makes wrong choices about his actions and sometimes his words, but to point out that Monk's usually a nice guy only serves to negate his apology and minimize Cole's feelings at that moment. Perhaps later, when we're over the initial sting of the slap, we can talk about making mistakes. But to instantly respond to someone's REAL pain and REAL anger with a series of posts supporting the person who caused the pain looks like justification and minimization to me.
Is all I'm saying.
And I see it frequently...so I'm not just talking about what happened here...but what happened here is a prime example.
drublood, kd may well have hurt this person's feelings, though for the life of me I can't understand why, but she didn't slap the woman on purpose. If she slapped her at all, it was an accident. So I'll not only defend her, but comfort her as well.
Hiya drublood!
I wasn't even going to respond to this, because it's so typical. Sigh.
FIRST of all, please explain to me how you all got the impression I was all 'angry' or fired up or whatever over kd's expressing whiteness with normality? Yes, it offended me. I explained why in a calm, rational manner. and here you all got it in your heads that I'm 'flaming' and 'attacking' poor nice kd who doesn't have a mean bone in her body. Ok, whatever. Here's a tip: read the post over again and imagine Oprah or or some other well-known mild-mannered black woman saying it. That ought to take out the sting.
Jen, you are very funny. If i hadn't heard what you wrote a millions times before I would get offended, but it's like so much rote-speak that I expecpt to hear it at some point in a race discussion with white folks. What, exactly, about my explaining to kd what her equating whiteness with normality meant to me gave you the idea that I 'glow in the bask of anger that rules my heart' (or whatever nonsense you posted)? I had no need to search through kd's post for some hidden meaning, it was right out there for anybody to see! Except of course, white folks who have no idea that equating their race with 'normality' is offensive. For your information, this ranks high among many, many many, non-white people on 'annoying & offensive things white people do/say' list.
Furthermore, Jen, I am a little bit puzzled as to why you feel 'saddened' by 'some peoples' need to keep 'the anger afresh' and FEEL SADDENED BY RACISM itself. How bizarre! Do you really think that black people run around making shit up in order to feel oppressed? Do you really belive that we get some joy or something from being discriminated against?! What, exactly, is your deal?
I did not 'twist' kd's words into anything than what they were. If you refuse to understand that MY opinion on kd's post is just as valid as YOURS, then it's useless to discuss race with you.
I understand that you feel the need to come defending kd and all that, but no defense was neccessary. I did not attack her. I did not call her a racist. I did not call her mean. I merely pointed out, I even tried to clarify, why her post was offensive to me. If you are unable to read my reasons without some knee-jerk of anger, you need to examine what's going on in your head and heart about race.
oops, should read, NOT FEEL SADDENED BY RACISM istelf.
Just went back to read Trula's words again, and I saw no "jumping down" of throats and no jumping to conclusions. What I saw was someone trying to educate kd about a common form of racism.
In my opinion, we should all thank Trula for informing us about something that white people commonly do to alienate people of color WHETHER WE MEAN TO OR NOT. We should be thanking her.
Wait...Trula, if you are still out there...thank you. I honor you, mama.
hahaha...
I think we x-posted, Trula. And it's true...I didn't see much anger there. I swear I didn't read your post before I posted mine.
And I got to add one more thing before I shut my mouth since my plea for kd to block my ip address has gone unanswered ...
First of all, being white doesn't make me racist, nor am I in denial about that.
Secondly, some of you may be too young to remember, but when I was growing up ONLY the weird white kids befriended the black kids. The so-called normal ones were too afraid to go against the social "norms" and that's a fact you can't erase from history. And god help the white girl who dated a black boy, or vice versa. They were social outcasts for the rest of their school career.
But some white folks didn't care about being considered normal, or maybe they were braver than the rest, or maybe they were just plain weird, and thank Godde for those folks, because they proved to the rest of the white kids that hanging out with a black person didn't give you cooties, making it possible for future generations to see past the old ways and embrace the better ones.
kd, I DID NOT attack you. I wouldn't even have posted anything because I make it a policy not to discuss race with white people besides my husband and a few people in his family, but you seemed like you were really trying and I liked your posts over at Jason's blog. Now your crew is all upset and whining as if I DID something to you by just pointing out why your post was offensive! This usually happens in conversations about race, but for some reason I didn't expect it here...
a)white person unintentionally says something offensive.
b)black person/person of color says, um, that was offensive, and here's why.
c)white person gets all salty/upset/offended/embarrased/defensive/ whatever all out of proportion at person of color's reason.
d) white person either gets very angry, swears off person of color and all interaction with future people of person of color's ethnic group, OR white person repeatedly apologizes.
e)person of color tries again to clarify why what white person says was offensive, being careful to use neutral, calm words so as not to anger/upset/embarass white person further. to no avail.
f)white person discusses statement/actions with various friends, who assure her that her statement wasn't wrog on several levels, but that black person/person of color is over-reacting/nit-picking/being angery over nothing. white person will be sure to get this type of opinion from at least one friend who is also a person of color.
g)If person of color is 'good' or 'nice' or 'different' than all those other angry/militant/pretending-to-be-oppressed (snort) people of color, at this point she or he will apologize to white person for saying that their words were offensive. Several attempts must be made to soothe the hurt feelings of white person.
And they say it's black people who are hyper-sensitive about race!!!
Let me make this clear: I am NOT one of those 'nice' or 'good' black people.
I did nothing wrong in pointing out to you, kd, why what you wrote was offensive. You seemed to be really making an effort to address race/color issues, I felt you would want to know that someone read that post and went *ouch*. I wasn't asking for an apology, I just wanted you to 'hear' my words and attempt to understand what I meant. I did not take offense against YOU. I took offense at what you wrote, that one post, as you pointed out. Telling me that I took it out of context of the rest of the blog makes no sense to me. I did not say that YOU were not a nice person. I did not say that YOU were offensive, mean, or a racist. I was merely talking about THAT post and what it meant to me. Double, huge sigh.
Thanks drublood! I'm looking at you blog now, it's cool! I honor you too, you know we moms gotta represent.
:)
and now I'm going to go back to quietly lurking here...
meatspace?
that, my friends, is either the coolest word creation of the day or the coolest misspelling of the day.
either way, its the coolest.
meatspace is a term that was brought up in the early days of blogcon discussions in which we discussed meatspace meeting as opposed to cyber.
as to the rest -- i've been hiding in the IM and the free sprint long distance discussing important things like penguins and ... stuff like that. i now need to go read three hunred fifty thousand two hundred five words and respond to them all.
meanwhile, everybody take a deep, cleansing breath. i'll be right back to y'all.
um. but not tonight. i'm too hormonal, drunk, and ... out of it tired wasted wiped in general.
forgive me.
please?
Damn I need to get my own flame war going. It always looks like such fun.
trust me, Chuck, it's not fun at all.
Did I miss something?
having missed it would be a good thing. i wish i had.
Whew. Didn't catch the eyebrow wiggle, there; I hate how eyebrow wiggles can be lost in translation.
For added levity, here are some women in sweatshirts hopping around like groundhogs with Vulcan ears in homage to LOTR. Oh, and Leonard Nimoy. Oh yes.
Scene: At work today, chatting with a beautiful (inside and out) black, gay friend of mine, me peeling my sunburn while discussing how my peeling to stop the itching is making everyone uncomfortable. His suggestion? "Keep peeling. There might be some black in you somewhere under all of that white."
*ROFL*
(Go to my site to see just how white I am and how bad my sunburn is for better reference to this comment.)
Ho jeez. Let me clarify the khakis slur: that refers to the huge influx of shiny new MBAs making $150K+ in their first jobs who have overwhelmed the local cultures here in the Bay Area, taking what has for generations been a vitally colorful place and turning it khaki. They wouldn't know Goodwill from their own rectums, they don't even donate there (and they mostly don't recycle). (Happily the majority of these annoying people got laid off and turned tail back to mom and dad's basements in other states.)
Goodwill is where i get my own (black) khakis.
See.
Nice example of how slurs can be taken out of context and taken personally, eh?
actually, the khaki thing? that was an attempt at levity. not a good one, apparently.
i don't care what people call me. really, honestly i don't.
now, Lilly, that is an excellent example of using a little gentle humor to acknowledge the differences and feel more comfortable with them.
Hi people, I just happened to be passing and looked in....
This board is actually quite tame compared to some. Good idea for a thread topic though. Communication Breakdown.....
Wow there's some thunder....IRL.
Communication problems are the biggest cause of flames. Somebody says something and before you know it, its been mis-communicated and there is a flame generated by somebody taking offence. so they introduced emoticons which go someway to giving a better ability to communicate meaning.
Still even with the use of emoticons, your meaning may be mis-communicated. Shit happens. BBs will always have this problem, its in the nature of the medium. People spend a lot of thread time on these sorts of threads.
Now if you really want to see the worst bashing and flaming on the internet, you would have to visit my BB.
Astalavista friends.